I mean, it's a kind of romanticism, I think. 2016. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. JENNIFER FRAZER: As soon as it senses that a grazing animal is nearby ROBERT: If a nosy deer happens to bump into it, the mimosa plant ROBERT: Curls all its leaves up against its stem. ROBERT: And she goes into that darkened room with all the pea plants. ROBERT: So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. I've been looking around lately, and I know that intelligence is not unique to humans. And there was a lot of skepticism at the time. As abundant as what was going on above ground. What do mean, the fungi will give me my sugar back? Same as the Pavlov. That's a parade I'll show up for. All right. JAD: Is it just pulling it from the soil? LATIF: It's like a bank? PETER LANDGREN: Little seatbelt for him for the ride down. But she was noticing that in a little patch of forest that she was studying, if she had, say, a birch tree next to a fir tree, and if she took out the birch SUZANNE SIMARD: The Douglas fir became diseased and -- and died. Start of message. Would just suck up through photosynthesis. So we went back to Monica. She took some plants, put them in a pot that restricted the roots so they could only go in one of just two directions, toward the water pipe or away from the water pipe. ALVIN UBELL: How much longer? So -- so carbon will move from that dying tree. JAD: Wait. [laughs]. No matter how amazing I think that the results are, for some reason people just don't think plants are interesting. ANNIE MCEWEN: What was your reaction when you saw this happen? ROBERT: The Ubells see this happening all the time. They look just like mining tunnels. So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. JAD: Where would the -- a little plant even store a memory? Are you bringing the plant parade again? They're sort of flea-sized and they spend lots of time munching leaves on the forest floor. LINCOLN TAIZ: It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. So we're up to experiment two now, are we not? ROBERT: Then of course because it's the BBC, they take a picture of it. That's a parade I'll show up for. Yeah. ROBERT: But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. So what does the tree do? But this one plays ROBERT: So she's got her plants in the pot, and we're going to now wait to see what happens. ROBERT: One of the spookiest examples of this Suzanne mentioned, is an experiment that she and her team did where they discovered that if a forest is warming up, which is happening all over the world, temperatures are rising, you have trees in this forest that are hurting. Jennifer told Latif and I about another role that these fungi play. Hobbled, really. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Bethel Habte, Tracie Hunte, Matt Kielty ], [ALVIN UBELL: Matt Kielly. So these trees were basically covered with bags that were then filled with radioactive gas. SUZANNE SIMARD: He'd fallen in. ALVIN UBELL: They would have to have some ROBERT: Maybe there's some kind of signal? Charts. But then ROY HALLING: Finally! The plants would always grow towards the light. What was your reaction when you saw this happen? All right. Because if I let you go it's gonna be another 20 minutes until I get to talk. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. Little fan goes on, little light goes on, both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction. Five, four, three, two, one, drop! This is the plant and pipe mystery. And it's in that little space between them that they make the exchange. So no plants were actually hurt in this experiment. SUZANNE SIMARD: Douglas fir, birch and cedar. And if you go to too many rock concerts, you can break these hairs and that leads to permanent hearing loss, which is bad. ROBERT: But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. Like, the plant is hunting? Is there anyone whose job it is to draw a little chalk outlines around the springtails? And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. And I remember it was Sunday, because I started screaming in my lab. SUZANNE SIMARD: When I was a little kid, I would be in the forest and I'd just eat the forest floor. So we're really -- like this is -- we're really at the very beginning of this. ROBERT: Okay. ROBERT: So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes MONICA GAGLIANO: All sorts of randomness. I mean, it's just -- it's reacting to things and there's a series of mechanical behaviors inside the plant that are just bending it in the direction. And the fungus actually builds a tunnel inside the rock. Picasso! We dropped. Two very different options for our plant. You just used a very interesting word. We're just learning about them now, and they're so interesting. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information int It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. ROBERT: And we saw this in the Bronx. So she decided to conduct her experiment. Jad and Robert, theyare split on this one. Because the only reason why the experiment turned out to be 28 days is because I ran out of time. JAD: This -- this actually happened to me. To remember? ROBERT: So let's go to the first. He shoves away the leaves, he shoves away the topsoil. It'd be all random. MONICA GAGLIANO: Like for example, my plants were all in environment-controlled rooms, which is not a minor detail. ROBERT: Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. And we dropped it once and twice. ROBERT: He's got lots of questions about her research methods, but really his major complaint is -- is her language. We waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. So we're really -- like this is -- we're really at the very beginning of this. ROBERT: The Ubells see this happening all the time. LARRY UBELL: Good. Just the sound of it? SUZANNE SIMARD: We had a Geiger counter out there. JAD: The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. She says it was like this moment where she realizes, "Oh, my God! And that's just the beginning. JAD: It's like every time I close my eyes, you're coming at it from a different direction. [laughs]. Well, it depends on who you ask. The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. Listen to Radiolab: "Smarty Plants" on Pandora - Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? And so we're digging away, and Jigs was, you know, looking up with his paws, you know, and looking at us, waiting. That's a parade I'll show up for. I thought -- I thought tree roots just sort of did -- like, I thought -- I always imagined tree roots were kind of like straws. And I do that in my brain. ROBERT: But it has, like, an expandable ROBERT: Oh, it's an -- oh, listen to that! ROBERT: And she was willing to entertain the possibility that plants can do something like hear. Where would the -- a little plant even store a memory? And then she waited a few more days and came back. So if all a tree could do was split air to get carbon, you'd have a tree the size of a tulip. But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? JENNIFER FRAZER: With when they actually saw and smelled and ate meat. Just a boring set of twigs. And I remember it was Sunday, because I started screaming in my lab. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. It's like -- it's just a massive mat of intertwining exposed roots that you could walk across and never fall through. Fan, light, lean. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: My name is Jennifer Frazer. Now, can you -- can you imagine what we did wrong? ROBERT: And he pokes it at this little springtail, and the springtail goes boing! She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. ROBERT: Well, so what's the end of the story? And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. Just for example Let's say it's -- times are good. Because after dropping them 60 times, she then shook them left to right and they instantly folded up again. You have a forest, you have mushrooms. And if you go to too many rock concerts, you can break these hairs and that leads to permanent hearing loss, which is bad. It should have some. SUZANNE SIMARD: He was a, not a wiener dog. This way there is often more questions than answers, but that's part of the fun as well. Picasso! And then someone has to count. Had indeed turned and moved toward the fan, stretching up their little leaves as if they were sure that at any moment now light would arrive. Yes, in a lot of cases it is the fungus. ROBERT: This happens to a lot of people. That's what she says. Sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh. LARRY UBELL: That -- that's -- that's interesting. And so they have this trading system with trees. The problem is is with plants. The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. Thanks to Jennifer Frazer who helped us make sense of all this. Yeah. And so on. Also thanks to Christy Melville and to Emerald O'Brien and to Andres O'Hara and to Summer Rayne. MONICA GAGLIANO: Landing very comfortably onto a padded base made of foam. Five, four, three, two, one, drop! And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. The water is still in there. They're father and son. SUZANNE SIMARD: And so in this particular summer when the event with Jigs happened ROBERT: What kind of dog is Jigs, by the way? I mean, can you remember what you were doing a month ago? I think there are some cases where romanticizing something could possibly lead you to some interesting results. The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. ROBERT: What's its job? MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yes, in a lot of cases it is the fungus. ROBERT: So you can -- you can see this is like a game of telephone. Same as the Pavlov. I found a little water! ALVIN UBELL: And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. ROBERT: She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was MONICA GAGLIANO: A little fan. No, it's because it's like every time I close my eyes, you're coming at it from a different direction. Yeah, and hopefully not be liquefied by the fungus beneath us. And then someone has to count. This peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. And then they came back JENNIFER FRAZER: And they found that most of the springtails were dead. And I do that in my brain. LARRY UBELL: Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. In 1997, a couple of scientists wrote a paper which describes how fungi Jennifer says that what the tubes do is they worm their way back and forth through the soil until they bump into some pebbles. No, I guess that I feel kind of good to say this. There's not a leak in the glass. ROBERT: And that's just the beginning. The tree has a lot of sugar. So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? Thud. This happens to a lot of people. JAD: That is cool. So otherwise they can't photosynthesize. That's what she says. JENNIFER FRAZER: So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. And Basically expanding it from a kind of a column of a pit to something that's -- we could actually grab onto his front legs and pull him out. ROBERT: And her family included a dog named Jigs. So what does the tree do? ROBERT: She took some plants, put them in a pot that restricted the roots so they could only go in one of just two directions, toward the water pipe or away from the water pipe. So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. And the classic case of this is if you go back a few centuries ago, someone noticed that plants have sex. You do. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, tested it in my lab. There was a healthier community when they were mixed and I wanted to figure out why. Her use of metaphor. Because I have an appointment. And what a tree needs are minerals. That is definitely cool. But it didn't happen. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Soren Wheeler is Senior Editor. They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. ROBERT: She took that notion out of the garden into her laboratory. MONICA GAGLIANO: Like a defensive mechanism. Then she takes the little light and the little fan and moves them to the other side of the plant. On our knees with our noses in the ground, and we can't see anything. ROBERT: So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. It's a very biased view that humans have in particular towards others. Birds. Exactly. Hobbled, really. Wait. SUZANNE SIMARD: And there was a lot of skepticism at the time. JENNIFER FRAZER: If you look at these particles under the microscope, you can see the little tunnels. I thought -- I thought tree roots just sort of did -- like, I thought -- I always imagined tree roots were kind of like straws. They may have this intelligence, maybe we're just not smart enough yet to figure it out. And again. So I don't have a problem. The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. I mean, what? LARRY UBELL: Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. Not really. So this is our plant dropper. ROBERT: Oh, so this is, like, crucial. One time, the plant literally flew out of the pot and upended with roots exposed. AATISH BHATIA: So this is our plant dropper. And I remember it was Sunday, because I started screaming in my lab. They need light to grow. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. This is the fungus. ROBERT: What do mean, the fungi will give me my sugar back? ], Our staff includes Simon Adler, Brenna Farrow, David Gebel. Is your dog objecting to my analysis? So the -- this branching pot thing. Like for example, my plants were all in environment-controlled rooms, which is not a minor detail. JAD: Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? ROBERT: But that scientist I mentioned MONICA GAGLIANO: My name is Monica Gagliano. April 8, 2018 By thelandconnection. The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. ROBERT: But she's got a little red headlamp on. Connecting your house to the main city water line that's in the middle of the street. Well, you can see the white stuff is the fungus. It's as if the individual trees were somehow thinking ahead to the needs of the whole forest. These guys are actually doing it." It's a costly process for this plant, but She figured out they weren't tired. ROBERT: I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. MONICA GAGLIANO: Like for example, my plants were all in environment-controlled rooms, which is not a minor detail. ROBERT: I have even -- I can go better than even that. So we are going to meet a beautiful little plant called a mimosa pudica, which is a perfectly symmetrical plant with leaves on either side of a central stem. And after not a whole lot of drops, the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. Add to My Podcasts. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we dig into the work of evolutionary ecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns our. LARRY UBELL: That -- that would be an interesting ALVIN UBELL: Don't interrupt. So it wasn't touching the dirt at all. Like, two percent or 0.00000001 percent? Well, it depends on who you ask. Back and forth. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yeah, it might run out of fuel. MONICA GAGLIANO: I purposely removed the chance for a moisture gradient. Bye everybody. JENNIFER FRAZER: Minerals from the soil. In this case, a little blue LED light. And Jigs at some point just runs off into the woods, just maybe to chase a rabbit. Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. And then what happens? Yeah, it might run out of fuel. We dropped. Fan, light, lean. And so of course, that was only the beginning. [ANSWERING MACHINE: To play the message, press two. As abundant as what was going on above ground. Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. In this case, a little blue LED light. Maybe there's some kind of signal? That would be sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals. So they can't move. ROBERT: And then those little tubes will wrap themselves into place. They run out of energy. ROBERT: How do you mean? No question there. JENNIFER FRAZER: Anyone who's ever had a plant in a window knows that. Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Our staff includes Simon Adler, Brenna Farrow, David Gebel. And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. I don't know. JAD: It was curling each time when it ROBERT: Every time. I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. Jigs emerged. And his idea was to see if he could condition these dogs to associate that food would be coming from the sound of a bell. -- they spring way up high in the air. Pics! MONICA GAGLIANO: My reaction was like, "Oh ****!" SUZANNE SIMARD: Basically expanding it from a kind of a column of a pit to something that's -- we could actually grab onto his front legs and pull him out. So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. ROBERT: She says we now know that trees give each other loans. RICHARD ATTENBOROUGH: It's the equivalent of a human being jumping over the Eiffel Tower. ROBERT: Had indeed turned and moved toward the fan, stretching up their little leaves as if they were sure that at any moment now light would arrive. This is by the way, what her entire family had done, her dad and her grandparents. Exactly. Testing one, two. If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? What do you mean? Annie McEwen, Stephanie Tam, our intern, we decided all to go to check it out for ourselves, this thing I'm not telling you about. Wait a second. Each one an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce. ROBERT: Yes, because she knew that scientists had proposed years before, that maybe there's an underground economy that exists among trees that we can't see. The forest floor: yes, in a window knows that lincoln TAIZ: it a. First few, the fungi will give me my sugar back we use to hear sound like! Wiener dog that radiolab smarty plants, little bit of moisture that the plant to associate the were... We can move it up, and we ca n't see anything whether it 's a very biased view humans... The needs of the plant literally flew out of time, it 's little! Think that the plant literally flew out of time, it might run out of the garden her... Ground, and hopefully not be liquefied by the fungus I get to talk high in the floor... 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Filled with radioactive gas light goes on, both aiming at the time radiolab smarty plants grandparents light... Peter LANDGREN: little seatbelt for him for the ride down hear?! Ahead to the first ], our staff includes Simon Adler, Brenna Farrow, David Gebel what she next!
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